In todays fast actioned, whirlwind of modern life it’s so easy to focus solely on the day to day management of a school. On this episode, we have some insights from a school principal who worked with his leadership team, teachers and school community to not only successfully manage the challenges of the last three years but also create an environment of inspirational change. The team also discuss how your work love languages can make a huge difference to the effectiveness and overall well-being of your, and Jeremy shares some application ideas for teachers using the Google Arts and Culture resource.
Check out the resources we’ve mentioned today:
1. Google Arts and Culture
2. The 5 Languages of Appreciation
We post every week and would love to have you keep up with us. If you know someone who would get value from these episodes, hit the share button and let them know. Lastly, if you have questions or anything to share with us, email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. You can also contact Bex at email@example.com to find out how you can get free PD in your schools (NZ) or follow us on Instagram at @usingtechnologybetter or on youtube.com/@utb
We’d love to hear from you! See you next week.
Podcast Transcript Podcast Below
Tim Lovelock: 0:00
And you have to change the way you lead, you have to change the way you operate. You know how I ran a to teacher school and what I had to do was completely different to what I did at Morris bush and I tried to actively challenge myself on just not doing what I found comfortable or what I knew, and being okay with discomfort. And that’s I think so many places forget this, you know, you are your own legal entity. Every school has its own independent place. You don’t have to read everything, you don’t have to follow every piece of thing that comes out. Um, this has been a bit provocative, but you know, you actually have to be worth your time and challenge some of the narrative that just gets feared out
Mark Herring: 0:37
Welcome to The Better Mindset Podcast, Episode Six. I’m Mark Herring.
Bex Rose: 0:47
I’m Bex Rose
Mark Herring: 0:48
Conversations about leadership, learning and educational technologies. On today’s episode Bex’s we’ve got a super easy way to grow your team culture through paying attention to people’s work love languages, that was a great conversation. We’ve also got an amazing conversation with a school principal, who’s got some amazing advice for leaders who want to see transformative change in their organization. And Jeremy, one of our trainers joins us to give us a virtual tour of Google’s incredible arts and culture resource.
Bex Rose: 1:19
Alright, Mark, I am in the hot seat for making waves today. And today I am going to be talking about love languages.
Mark Herring: 1:29
I’m super excited, but slightly nervous.
Bex Rose: 1:34
So love languages in the workplace though, okay, so I’m not going to find out about your love languages and your relationships. But we will touch on what the love languages are. So if there are five love languages, they are words of affirmation, quality, time, receiving gifts, acts of service, physical touch, and physical touch, okay. And these are key aspects of any kind of relationship that you respond best to because it’s what you crave. Okay, so if I’m talking about words of affirmation and relationship, it’s kind of like I love you so much like you’re doing a great job at being a mom or you’re doing that kind of thing. Okay? If you want quality time, it’s kind of like sitting on the couch watching Netflix together or going for a walk together. And spending time together. Receiving Gifts is pretty obvious. It’s the ones that people love getting the gifts at Christmas time or love just giving a sporadic gift. And acts of service is like making sure that the dishwashers or the washing is out or you know, mowing the lawns, making sure that you know things around the house are getting done. And physical touches just you know, the stroke on the back of the hand holding when you’re walking, hugs, that kind of thing. So everyone has a preferred love language, whoever has the preferred love language. And that’s what you respond to. And then the interesting thing is, is that you project your love language onto your spouse or your family. Okay, so I’ll give an example. So I am words of affirmation. So words of affirmation, like making, like, on fix you doing such a great job of cleaning the house or you’re doing such a great job like being a mom, that kind of thing. Yeah, I need to be told that I’m doing a great job. Okay, give me a gift in our current and I’ll go no, don’t give me a gift. It just makes me feel really awkward. And my husband is acts of service. So he does so much around the house, and it’s his way of showing his love for us. What do you reckon yours might be like,
Mark Herring: 3:52
instantly I knew I think I’ve done I’ve had discussions like this before and definitely minus physical touch. My wife’s completely the opposite. She’s more about acts of service like so she wants me to do the dishes and I just want to go over and you know, sort of have a kava cuddle on the couch or something.
Bex Rose: 4:08
Yeah, it’s about that, that you know that though, right?
Mark Herring: 4:11
Oh, 100%. Yeah. And it’s probably been like being able to talk about that as one of the things that can bring us closer together. Because, like, I can even see it in some friends. Like, I noticed that I’ve had this conversation with some good friends of ours and his love languages gift giving, so he loves to give gifts. And that helps me understand from his perspective. So when he gives me something from my birthday or whatever, like I’m like, oh, that’s kind of weird. Like, I wasn’t expecting that. But that’s his way of showing me how much you know, he wants to kind of connect and, and keep the friendship going. So it’s about understanding yourself, but also, you know, that whole kind of understanding others and that’s exactly right. Yeah,
Bex Rose: 4:45
exactly. Right. So this, this tool can be used in leadership. It can be used within teams, because when you know, people in your team, and the love languages are, that’s when you really start showing some authentic wellbeing for them, right? So that’s why I think it’s so important to know your team so well because you can, I mean, you don’t have to go through a test or figure out what their love languages you can intuitively know, like, I knew that some people in my team were really needed to be told that they’re doing a great job. Okay, so I knew that I made sure that they did that. But what I’m going to get into now is ways in the workplace that you can show each language because as a leader, you may have to adapt your leadership style, like you might not this might not resonate for you to do this. But as a leader, you need to know your team. And you need to know how to appreciate them or show your appreciation. And I’m
Mark Herring: 5:44
keen to know how the physical touch one relates in the office workplace. Because honestly, if you’re gonna say to me, you just need to get people to give you high fives, it’s not going to cut it for me. So I’ll let you
Bex Rose: 5:57
That is the trickiest one. I’m not gonna lie. Let’s start from the one of my favourites. So words of affirmation. So words of affirmation can be shown in the workplace through mentoring and feedback. So giving good feedback, giving good mentoring, it’s letting the one person know, but with that CC and all the other team members, what a great job they’re doing. So it’s kind of like that public. In a public forum, you know, like, on our on our, in our at UTB, we have teams, Microsoft Teams. And we can show appreciation to someone through a praise channel. And so it’s like, you can say, Hey, Nicole, you’ve done a great job leading your team this week, I can see this, this and this, and you can tag them in and everyone can see it. So that’s, that’s a word of affirmation, work. And so that’s also workplace appreciation and a public setting. So that could be on teams, it could be via email, but it could also be at a meeting, you know, so we used to have like this, this part of our PLD meetings, or our sorry, our admin meetings at school, where, you know, just like an appreciation part, like if someone’s done something really good for you that week, and really nice and kind of thought of you, that’s when you kind of say it. And then if you’re that kind of person that loves that kind of thing, make a smile file on your computer. So a smile file is like a little dis on your desktop, like a little folder of maybe screenshots of emails that you’ve got that’s been like, even from parents, you know, like, I used to save really nice emails from parents saying, thanks so much, Bex, for doing XYZ and organizing some beans for there, and then just read through them if I was having a hard day. And I’d go, Oh, that was, you know, that was really nice. It kind of boosted my spirits.
Mark Herring: 7:43
Let’s go ahead. I was on a leadership call just a couple of days ago. And the principal said that he has a spreadsheet with all the teachers in his team, so at a school and then he would just make notes of when he’s encouraged them on certain things. So he can kind of see who’s you know, getting encouragement and who’s not. And I, I thought that was like OCD, like in terms of track tracking. But you know, he takes that pretty seriously. And that words of affirmation, that encouragement thing is really important to him. So he obviously he makes a big deal about it because he knows that it’s important for others. So I thought that was a cool idea. Yeah,
Bex Rose: 8:13
it kind of reminds me of what you’re doing are certificates in your class back in the day, like a lesson make sure you get through because
Mark Herring: 8:20
it’s Mary’s turn today, it’s been returned. So
Bex Rose: 8:24
it’s something that
Mark Herring: 8:27
Mary, I’d like to encourage you for being so patient for waiting for a certificate
Bex Rose: 8:33
to tell me that you have a ticket yet. Okay, we’re gonna move on to quality time. So quality time in the workplace looks like workplace bonding, or taking the team out for lunch, and celebrating work anniversaries. And so that kind of thing, those workplace bonding things, some people go, Ooh,
Mark Herring: 8:54
I can’t be bothered, don’t
Bex Rose: 8:56
Make any sort of like, let’s get through this, you know, that you will know that those kinds of people love the quality time. It could also be as a leader, encouraging people, encouraging your team, if you see that they’re starting to struggle or really starting to have their cup empty, encourage them to take a mental health day, or encourage them if you’re in a business setting. Obviously, this is a bit different in school, but to go, you know, you’ve got two weeks of holidays here, go and take a couple of days and refill your cup. So go and spend quality time with who you need to go and spend quality time with. So those are some ideas for quality time.
Right, and we’re going to move into receiving gifts. So this could be as it says, like popping something on the desk, that they might like, you know, like popping a doughnut on the desk in the morning or sometimes I bring in coffees for some of the staff that I knew that that was the love language and they’d be like, you’re amazing. Like this is so good. Some would be like This is awkward. I already had two coffees this morning. No, but that’s. But it can also look like this. It could also look like giving someone a new opportunity or a challenge. So saying, hey, I can see that you’re really, you’re doing really well in this. Could you give this a go and try this thing and give them the opportunity over someone else?
Mark Herring: 10:19
Like a day? Or some kind of a course or something? Maybe?
Bex Rose: 10:22
Yeah, that’s a good idea. Yeah, something like that. So, yeah, I was thinking like, you know, if there was an event coming up, and yeah, and I know there was this professional event or there was like a coal event or something and taking them along, and it would be for like a receiving gifts type thing. You could also give them maybe say, Hey, you have done an incredible job, you organize the whole cultural festival, take tomorrow off, like, get a reliever and put it in your class, or even a higher level opportunity. So hey, I can see you’re doing really, really well here. Do you want to PCT, I think you can, I think you’d do really well with getting a PCT and looking after the PCT. So that’s what receiving gifts, I kind of put it in an education context there. But you know, like, maybe if it’s in a business context, it’s the newbie that’s come along, and you’re the baddie, so you’re the better you can help them pave the way and kind of mold them to help the culture and you know, that kind of thing.
Mark Herring: 11:23
And a PCT is like a beginning teacher. Yeah.
Bex Rose: 11:30
I don’t acronyms out in the woods. Yeah. Okay. And acts of service. So acts of service in the workplace is just literally giving someone some support or telling them that I’m here to support you. So yell out, if you need me. I can come I can come and help you. I can take your class I can sit I’ll come and sit down help you watch her. What’d she give, observe in give feedback, I can support you know, I can cut your artwork out and pick it up on the wall, that kind of thing. It’s also email checking in saying, Hey, how you doing today? You know, like, that was a pretty tough day. You are right now that kind of thing. Like just checking in. And, or it could be, Hey, I saw this caught our resource here, give it a go. Like finding a resource and emailing it off to them or finding some sort of a podcast and saying, Hey, this could be something that you could listen to. So yeah, so that’s acts of service in the workplace. Yep. And the last one, I’m waiting. Okay, so this is not like going to the opposite shutting the door.
Mark Herring: 12:39
We won’t go down that road.
Bex Rose: 12:41
No, so this is you know, physical touch. It can be done via verbally, verbally, like verbal, physical touches. I know verbal and physical is not the same thing. But it’s like okay, so going past someone and just go like just giving them a really legit genuine smile. Like going Hey, like, good morning. Like, you know how when you go past someone in the morning, and you’re rushing to the photocopier you’re rushing someone here rushing them in the morning, morning, morning. If you literally like I some of the people on my team, I could tell that was the thing. And I would just go morning, how are you doing? Like just do like a real big, over zealous sort of mourning and instead go away smiling as well, because it would be like I’ve felt touched by you, but not in physical seats. You know? He’s going, going past and going. Hey, I just saw you out there with your class taking the most epic PE lesson. Wow, that was amazing. Like, that was so good. And just being like, like, in like, not in the face, but right there and going, that was awesome. Like you had done such a great job like, right, like giving them real, overzealous, kind of like hugging without the hugging. But then there’s also you can’t like, I have people, my staff, like if I could see someone was wrong, or something was wrong, and I wasn’t, you know, giving them a cup of coffee wasn’t going to work telling me they were amazing wasn’t going to work. You know, I could see that they actually needed a hug. Like, give them a hug. You know, like, I mean, obviously, it’s consenting, it’s making sure that that’s the that reading the room and reading the vibe, that kind of thing. But, man, sometimes my staff just needed a hug. They just did a hug.
Mark Herring: 14:23
So just Yeah. Especially if it’s you know, a woman to woman or man to man, like I think sometimes there are some cultures where the guy you know, like the whole kind of handshake thing. Well, yeah, you do. I don’t I’m terrible at it, but you do the handshake, and then you pull on into the shoulder, the shoulder. Sometimes, yeah, but what you’re saying is, I guess on a on the personal level, that physical touch element is all about intimacy and about getting close to someone. But what you’re saying is in the professional level, there are ways to be able to do that where it’s not actually about physical touch because yeah, I know what you’re saying. You’re especially that greeting part where yes, you’re saying hi to somebody and you’re letting them know that you’re really stuck to see them. There was a, there’s somebody I always think of whenever I think about that his name, his name’s Doug. He’s, he’s, he used to be a teacher, but we connected through the church that I was at really, really quickly. And he was just like that he was. He’s a real estate agent now. And he just connects with people really quickly. But it’s because he’s kind of mastered the art of saying hi to somebody in a way that makes you feel like, wow, he actually really is keen to see me. Yeah. And you always remember that, because he reminded me of my uncle and my uncle was exactly the same. Yeah, so like, that’s, that’s something that I think is really important in the workplace and at schools, when you’re seeing people, like, actually let them know. And that greeting that you’re really, really stoked to see them.
Bex Rose: 15:41
I think it makes makes a difference. So the interesting thing is, is that you can have a different love language at home than at work, as well. Yeah, it’s gonna leave. That’s interesting. Yeah, it could be that, you know, at home, you acts of service, you know, especially like, let’s just say mums, if your husband or your significant other, does the dishes, or you know, puts the washing out, you are going to love them. Like, that’s awesome. Yeah. But if you, it may not may not be the same at school, because it’s like, actually, that’s your job. Like, that’s what you need to do. So it might not be the same. I think for me, I’m still I still very much love words of affirmation. But I think there’s a lot it’s a lot deeper than that for me, because I think I’ve always felt like I’ve had impostor syndrome. So tell if someone tells me that I’m doing a good job. Oh, my goodness. Maybe? Not at all right, you know, which is a whole nother podcast.
Mark Herring: 16:38
That’s a whole nother thing. I think we can all relate to that for sure.
Bex Rose: 16:41
Yeah, but we can actually do a one on one impostor syndrome. And so, so yeah, and it can also change over time. You know, it depends where you are, when you where you are in your life. Things, you know, back when you’re 13, and a boy gives you a gift, you’d be like, Oh, my God, you know, but that might not be the same later on in life. So so it is they can change. But my challenge to you is to think about what your love language, maybe there are little tests and stuff online, if you’re a bit confused, you can you can kind of go over to as well. So you can go and teach yourself. But have a think about if you’re in leadership, what your team craves, and then kind of like, slot that into it. A love language type box, and how you can really show your appreciation to your staff. Because when you show appreciation to your staff, wow, what a culture shock, like what that is we’re culture begins and where it can eat like that is where you need to be you need to be showing appreciation to your staff. And, yeah, I know, sometimes it’s not natural for a lot of people. But when you do, it just makes all the difference. I’ve been in staff rooms that do not have that. And then some that do and it’s the hum the buzz, you get more work getting done because people love their job. Like it’s just a no brainer.
Mark Herring: 18:00
Yeah, that’s so good. Oh, huge challenge for the year. And that could be something that if a leader puts in place, or even if you’re not on leadership in the school, if you have that conversation with the people that are leading you, it could make a big difference for you, your staff culture. So thanks both. That’s fantastic. Well, very excited for our guests to the show today. Because we’ve got Tim Hey, Tim,
Tim Lovelock: 18:24
Hey, Mark, hey, Bex.
Mark Herring: 18:27
I just want to give a little bit of clarity to and the reason why I’m so excited. We’re gonna dive into a conversation about leadership, and what makes strong leadership and not management. That’s really the theme that I’d love to draw out of you from you today and have a conversation about but one of the things that I am also excited about is on twofold. So you and I have known each other for quite a while you were the third principle that I worked with, as the DP working with you. And I often talk to people about how in the school that we were at in South Bend, I know you’ve moved up to the North Island now. But in South Bend, we were part of a team of three. And I often think of us as the the dynamic duo or three Oh, no, what’s the triple version of that? I have, obviously haven’t planned that part of this introduction. But you were the principal I was the DP and we had there were two DPS and the three of us has worked so well. And one of the things that I’ve often said to people about your leadership and my experience with you was how enabling you were in a really good way, not in a bad way. I was one of those teachers who obviously was, you know, trying to be and it just had a real bent towards being innovative. And you were one of those people that I really felt like I could go to and be nurtured and encouraged and supported. And I just I felt like I thrived in that environment because of the leadership that you brought to that table. I don’t think Tim ever said no to me, and if he did, because there was some very good reasons behind it. Pretty good reps, right. The other thing that I’m excited for us to discuss today is is around and we’re going to talk about the why and some of the reasons why you were able to make this change. But just to paint a picture of the school that you’re in at the moment, we’ve worked UTB has worked with your school in total, for a number of years, but for bet nearly five years now, I think we’ve been in and out of professional learning with you. And just to paint a picture for people who haven’t been there or haven’t heard of wiper, he’s school. And when you go into the school, Beck’s there is a feeling and a vibe in the school that is quite different to most other schools that you go to. And the way that I can describe it best is, you know, at the end of the school term, or mostly at the end of the school year, when everybody’s kind of like, it’s like you’ve packed up, you’ve done your hard Mahi. And everybody’s just still excited to be there, looking forward to the holidays. But there’s a real nice sort of buzz and a vibe. And there’s lots of kids everywhere. So at any time in the day, on any particular day, Monday to Friday, they correct me if I’m wrong, if it’s changed, but you don’t have any bell times, you don’t have any sort of scheduled breaks where the kids have to go to a break or whatever. So you can look out a window and you’ll see kids jumping on scooters, over half pipes, you’ll have kids up trees, going for walks with teachers to the bush, there’s a lot of unstructured learning, but equally at the same time, you can go into a classroom, and you’ll see a teacher working with some students who are just totally wrapped and absorbed around what they’re doing, and some really rigorous learning at the same time. So it’s kind of got this amazing, relaxed, natural feel. But it’s also got that element of rigor to it. So it’s a wonderful vibe, wonderful culture. And I just always love the times that I’ve walked in the gate, I feel like I’ve kind of there’s like a breath of fresh air in terms of what education can look like. And that’s not to disparage a lot of other schools who are very structured and have bedtimes but I think that’s the culture that you’ve developed. And I know that you’ve been on a journey. And I think maybe we could start with that, Tim, if you could describe, you know, the journey that you went from from structured because I know that that was what it was like when you went there was very traditional, structured, you know, very, very high performing school. But now it’s got a very different vibe, and a very different way of doing things tell us about that journey of where you where you started to where you actually now,
Tim Lovelock: 22:13
Well, how long we got Mark, not too long. And I’ll try and keep it succinct, you know, the lifecycle principle application, sometimes, you know, you apply for a job thinking, What you then knowing or thinking that you know, what you’re going to walk into, and then and then perhaps after a few weeks, finding it a little bit different, you know, it’s a very unique leadership role on the fact that’s, you know, you just have to walk in and pick up what’s there, and you do have to run with it. And you do have to, you know, learn fast about about what’s going on. This was a traditionally very successful school, you know, in terms of there was back in the day of the height national standards when I came here in 2015. And it had had some very high success rates, and its achievement, student achievement. And, you know, I was really proud of what are done and I had a really strong foundation there of some core practice. But, probably the biggest thing, and I didn’t realize it was a big aggravate aggravation, that’s the right word was that I had been employed and took to a vision throughout my interview process, the border flying down, and cat, which I thought was really unique as well run all the way down for cargo and came to Morris bush and actually walked the walk for a day with me there and talked to people on the ground, which I’ve never seen a lot of that happen. And an appointment process before after. But what I came to So the vision I talked to was not what people thought it was here. Sorry about that. And so that was the first big thing was actually one talking about what is the vision of our place? Who are we what in terms of learning what does that look like as a learning vision? And the other big thing was, what does leadership look like? In our school? There are the two big questions that cause the most aggravation, confrontation, agitation, and the first term. Unwittingly I unearthed Ward’s box of because I challenged you straightaway, I think challenge people’s beliefs and values and feelings, I suppose around what they’re passionate about and what that’s connected to. And when you’re trying to draw it to a connected point when it’s perhaps been a little bit disjointed, that’s, that can be really hard for people. That was the
Mark Herring: 25:00
Yeah, so. So even on that point, you know, like, I think a lot of leaders that in the schools that we work with, you know, we take them through a school transformation program over a period of time, often the contracts are a year or two years long. And what we do now is we have a bit of a value metrics where we look at where the school is out across 18 elements of dynamic learning. And one of the things that often comes up as a starting point is the vision. So most schools haven’t got from a digital learning lens, they haven’t got a very clear articulated vision, and if they’ve got a mission statement or a vision for learning overall, it’s not really well clearly articulated or understood by all the teachers. And I think like, you know, to your point, I think a lot of schools are like that teachers are kind of operating out of their own internal vision, or they’ve adopted someone else’s subconsciously, about
Tim Lovelock: 25:51
Yeah, yeah. And, and initiatives in their own right, can become actually almost division, like, that was the thing we had here, we had a couple of vision statements. And then we had a whole lot of initiatives, either around maths or literacy or even behavior expectations, that that people are passionate about that it almost become their idea of division, you know, become the core element of it, rather than it coming back to a central point of, you know, but this is, you know, when I keep harping on about a learning vision, you know, basically, you know, kids are at the center of everything we do, how are we responding to kids needs? And what does that look like in terms of a curriculum, we’re putting together, how learning works in our school, how we work together as teachers, and how we use the space and prioritize it for our learners. And they sound like simple questions, but they’re actually real big, deep, confrontational type things, because, you know, you’re challenging the adult sort of norms or habits of behavior that they think is actually about the children, but actually some that’s just about a structure that works for adults.
Bex Rose: 27:07
Well, I can picture right now is a raft or a walker, and everyone paddling, paddling, because they’re doing the job, but they’re all paddling in different ways. And so they’re the ones not actually getting anywhere. So they’re all doing great things in their own right. But the vision and the strategic focus, and the plan hasn’t been articulated, so that the work is not actually going anywhere.
Tim Lovelock: 27:27
Yeah, yeah. And that’s totally wiped out. He, you know, had a team full of passionate people, they were on it, I can say that unequivocally, they all were genuinely and I think, particularly an acknowledgement of primary schools, I think, you know, there is a lot of passion and commitment to supporting children’s learning needs and primary school, it’s just how do you draw that together? real sense of purpose, the why of what you do, you know, I love the old Simon Sinek thing of, you know, what is your why? What is people will always they don’t want follow what you do. It’s, you know, why you do it? So, so how do we articulate that? And how does that look? Because then it will be exampled in our practice, you know, that that’s that challenges, values and beliefs. And if you’re not willing to do that, because that then brings behavior to the forefront, you know, and adults connect like, teenagers. Yeah. When leadership, and this is where we sort of talked about, you know, leadership’s this leadership has to lead this leadership actually has to get out of, you know, we’re not here to be friends. We’re not on that personal level. We are, we are meant to be colleagues and we are meant to be caring for our people. But professional conversations aren’t personal. And yeah, that’s a huge element. And it’s, it’s not because I’m not saying that you’re not looking after people that you don’t like the people you work with, then, you know, you can’t share a drink with them or whatever. But how do you lead and be okay to challenge practice, sort of, you know, and help people and a staff understand how to separate that from the personal sense of themselves and their feelings. And that takes time. And that’s been
Bex Rose: 29:16
courageous. It’s mostly just leadership. Yeah, courageous leadership courageous conversations, which we talked about lots of certified leadership program, about courageous conversations, but and they’re never easy, and they’re never fun. It’s not your goal. I’m not going up there to try and hurt anyone’s feelings, but to gain that clarity and to glide and get to gain that traction and momentum. You have to get everyone on the same page and that, that you have to have a courageous conversation to get to that point.
Tim Lovelock: 29:43
Yeah, I remember reading we wants to we’re on a day with Tony Burke incrementally actually, the way he talked about, you know, the lag time you can tell that the health of an organization the professional sort of health of an organization by If the lag time of identifying a problem, you know, in terms of between people or between, yeah, what you want to happen, what is happening and, and how long it takes you to do something about it. And the places that have good professional cultures that are that are able to have those brave, and we just call them honest conversations. Actually, they should not brave any more than just being honest. But it’s actually having a culture where you can just be honest, and it’s not personal. It’s like, I’m not attacking you personally. But, you know, there’s something we have to talk about. And if you can’t do that, within a very short timeline of knowing there’s a problem, then you know, that actually, you’re too worried about, you know, the socialization sort of stuff. You’re stuck in there. He used to call it the love feast.
Mark Herring: 30:51
Yeah, well, it’s a nice balance to what you know, we’ve talked about today and making waves with love languages in the workplace, expect, like to be like pretty brutally frank, I’ve, I’ve come to realize that it’s one of my missions in life, to encourage school leadership’s teams, particularly, but obviously the school leader to start taking some courageous steps, not just in courageous conversations, but courageous steps, because if you put yourself in the shoes of most school leaders, you know, and we’ve all been in that place where they’re at a deeper leadership space, you’ve got a lot on your plate, you know, we’ve just gone through COVID. So we’re a see they call it after COVID. In the New Zealand context, if you’re aware of what’s happening, we’ve got Auckland with the flooding, we’ve had major floods school, you know, principals have got a lot of things on their plate, whether it’s, you know, having to replace the carpets or, you know, like, we’re, you know, talking about what you can do to be able to get relievers, because I’m really struggling with my staff. Yeah, and, and I think one of the things that I admire about you, and one of the things I’d love to drill down into is the types of things that leaders can do to be in a place a headspace place, but also on a team place, to be able to take those courageous steps and have those courageous conversations, while managing all of the day to day that I have to do, what are some of the key things that leaders can do to make sure that they’re in that leadership space, as well as doing a good job at the management space, because one of them, you can’t have one without the other, they both have to work sort of like an oar on a boat, you have to road both at the same time. But most of the leaders I’m talking to stuck in management, they’re finding it difficult either they’re saying, you know that there’s too many buts. I don’t have the team or you don’t know, my community, or I heard one say, I don’t actually make any changes to my school, unless I see other people do them 10 years down the track, and then I’ll see what they did wrong. And then I’ll move you know, like that’s, that might be the sleep personality. So what are the things that that you see as key to be able to make sure that you can lead
Tim Lovelock: 32:48
yet probably in having you know, this third school I’ve been principal of, you know, went from a to teach school to an active school to a 18 teacher school. So you know, and you have to change the way you lead, you have to change the way you operate. You know, how I ran a two teacher school and what I had to do was completely different to what I did at Maurice bush and I tried to actively challenge myself on just not doing what I found comfortable or what I knew, and being okay with discomfort and being okay with also being a leader. So when I came to this small, actually having the, you know, you are endless I think so many places forget this, you know, you are your own legal entity, every school has its own independent place, you know, our mods, independent, you do not you are not employed or run by the Ministry of Education, you can be brave. And you don’t have to read everything, you don’t have to follow every piece of thing that comes out of this as being a rocket of but you know, you actually have to look your time and challenge some of the narrative that just gets fed out to you, and go does that work for our place? And how will we and what is important for our place at this time? Because otherwise, you will just run around ticking boxes and managing tasks and always asking questions, you know, I’ve loved the mentor of it’s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission and and then encourage people put the get the people around you over time on your team that, you know, are also unwaveringly centered on making learning work for kids. And by that I would say actually, so how does our vision come to life? What does learning look like that responds to the needs of our kids and our community? And how do we have to look at the day? How do we have to look at the our school environment to actually make that work? So but to do that, I’ve got to let go of control. I’ve got to be okay, and expect team leaders and DPS to not just keep their eyes heads down in their own little team or on their own and you know, all of my team and leaders are full time teaching. And I’m, you know, we strategically resource to walking DPS. And we lead together, you know, we collaborate, we mirror what we expect our teams to do. Our teams are all collaborative teaching teams and an old school environment, you know, built in the 1960s, right through to the early 2000s. Nothing looks like a brand new beautiful school, but we make collaborative teaching, as a core part of our, the way we do what we do, and everybody knows they have a responsibility to be able to articulate and own how we make learning work for cats. And that’s, that’s what made it easy when we came back, because I’ve heard it heaps, I heard it talked about, you know, we need brave and courageous leaders, you know, that challenge the traditional structures of how our school operates, because basically, you can walk into most schools, and you and I could go back to primary school. And it would feel like what it was when we were there, you know, in terms of the day, the bell, the playtime the lunchtime, you know, the desks in groups, whatever it it’s like, how have we changed, the world is changing, and it’s exponentially changing. And my kids were at high school, right in the middle of this feeling. You know, if we don’t do something, and actually people actually be okay to be brave and challenge the status quo, then we’re stuck in a moment, we can’t get out of good old view to you know, what a song
Mark Herring: 36:33
is showing your age there? Yeah, you’re another generation back. So I apologize. I’ll fill you in later. They’re an old band.
Bex Rose: 36:42
Now, I am really interested because we, I’m high, I’m on a board of a high school at the moment that has bucked the trend. And it’s not only the teaching staff that you have to get on board, it’s your key stakeholders. So it’s the community. It’s all teachers, it’s the kids, everyone. So I guess it’s how did you rally the troops? How did you get all the key stakeholders on board? And and follow that same vision that you have of ensuring that learning is catered catering for your pets?
Tim Lovelock: 37:15
That’s that’s a good question. And this is where I think this is why it’s easier sometimes for people to stay in the lane. Because if you’re going to be brave and courageous, like we spent probably 18 months to two years working on on revisiting the vision way back from October 2015, when I started right through to the end of probably 2017. But, you know, in talking about what that looked like, what are the key elements of that, but then when you actually looked at changing the day to day structures that could make that happen? And after COVID going, how are we responding to our kids when they’ve just been off that first lockdown. That was a we radical moment for us, we actually had to be okay with challenging some of our communities perceived thinking of what learning look like. And we learned that by oversharing information, we actually made it more challenging for us. Because unless they wanted to really engage and think deeply about it, it just alarmed them. And yet, you know, rather than rather than assuring them, so we have actually, you know, we’ve had our people who haven’t bought into it and you know, we’ve we’ve had, we’ve had to stay true. And this is where, because you’re a professional. So if you’re a professional body, sometimes, and primary schools, I think over time have become too much. And feeling like they have to we can only do it if our community say so well, actually, they’re not the professional you don’t. Your doctor doesn’t say can I treat you? This way? You okay? Because I’m not going to I’ll actually just change my whole opinion. And how I’m going to treat you just because you’re telling me a shot. And
Mark Herring: 39:00
you don’t because I’ve done some research
Tim Lovelock: 39:02
on the internet. That’s right. That’s right. We’ve had to be brave. And we’ve had to and we’ve had to weather the storm. Man was part of the way the big summit day. That was a beautiful, whole day of you know, caviar call lead principle principle leads some of the conversations, some of the across call leaves. We talked about innovative practice and collaboration. We talked about how we’re trying to be responsive to learners and that night and some of the workshops. Some of our teachers got absolutely nailed by some people and that there were tears at the end of that and we had to stay in luckily we had a culture by the end of you know, we united we stayed strong. And we went Yep, they were going to be okay, if this is not for them, they’ve got a choice. That’s fine. We can flip flop and fold on our principles that we believe we’re bringing our vision which our community had agreed to to life, because as professionals as practitioners, we’ve got to be okay let go The staff will only do that if there’s a leader and a leadership team that are prepared to weather some of that storm and it was pretty hard. And I’ve got an amazing team. You know, I’ve got two amazing DPS men’s and shin and, and team leaders who are really tight. And I’ve got each other’s back 100% they trust each other explicitly implicitly. Those Yeah, you know, I I’ve this year taken on the Kahui arco role lead principal role of 15 schools and over 20, quite a lot of ACS only. And I’ll continue to do that, because I’ve got DPS, who I can trust implicitly to step up and do, you know, give me time to do that. I think I’m a bit
Bex Rose: 40:49
and you’ve built the foundations as a leader to make. So you know, so you know, that you’ve built some really solid foundations like I’m thinking of a house, you’ve built all these solid foundations, you know, everything will grow out. And the walls will stand up without you being there. I’m kind of missing a step, a step of this, though. So you came into the school and everyone was rowing in the wrong light, right? They were all doing all rowing really hard and doing the best they could do. How did you use them, bridge it to where you are today with this incredible culture that you can confidently lead a car who we call and instill have your walk away going the right way?
Tim Lovelock: 41:26
Time? You know, culture change takes five, six years. So this is now my Wow, this is now my seventh. What are we in 2023? This my eighth year here? So and I think Mark, you said that when you and Mike came way back, and because when we did that first bit of strategic workshopping.
Mark Herring: 41:46
There’s about I think it was 216. Yeah.
Tim Lovelock: 41:49
And we talked about that, you know, it’s five years time. Well, it was a good six chickens. COVID. It was six years. It was only last year that really, we really, I think, had the benefit of all the money we put in. And so you just even work? Yeah, just Yeah, it’s a the course. And we had to just keep coming back to this. We’re an unashamedly, we have, it is all about child centered. And everything we do, from assessment practices to curriculum structure that we develop over that five years, to challenging leadership practices, teacher practices, building collaboration, you know, people that didn’t want to work together, but thought they did, you know, being okay, that people worked out, this might not be the right place for them, making some mistakes along the way. You know, but not, not stopping learning from them and carrying on. That’s key. That’s that that’s the journey. And it’s really hard. Like, honestly, it is, there’s a whole sum of parts that come back to an unwavering focus on making everything that we do in the day, from how we do assessment, and what the purpose of assessment as for and what learning looks like, and the structure of it to how teachers work together to help people lead, keeping that at the forefront, because it’s about making learning work for kids and responding to their needs. And that then challenges some parental community norms that challenges, ministries, feeling of safety around money that challenges, you know, and towns, perspective of what you have what your school is, or was, you know, and you just have to be brave, and it comes back to people having each other’s backs. A big part of challenging or growing the leadership to make that happen, was an investment over time. It’s just as one element. And it’s not a plug for him, because there’s other people, but we’ve found them to be amazing, you know, Tony Burke instruments lead has worked with our leadership team. And by that I mean, all 16 leaders and the DPS and myself, since none of us every term for now, seven years, one day, a term at least, plus some staff only days to talk about what is professional practice. What does that look like alongside excellent teacher practice? So not just understanding curriculum and how to deliver it as a teacher, but also how do I work as a professional? What does that look like? Because our registered teacher criteria has both sides of that you meant to actually not just know the curriculum, and know how to teach and how to respond to learners, you’re actually meant to also know how to be professional and how to respond to colleagues and how to be challenged by colleagues and have learned from each other. And that takes time. That’s a culture to grow. Because if you’re stuck in that, and the norm of relationships, and I can’t say that too, because you’ll get upset, then you’ll never actually get true traction and depth to realizing that dream or vision
Mark Herring: 44:53
is so good. I had a principal recently say to me that he he is loving the new teacher stand It’s because he said that the old ones that New Zealand used to have that were, you know, requirements for teachers to be able to meet a professional standard. He said the old ones that were there, he said you could be exploitive and still meet the standards. And so now he was saying, and I’m not very deep into them, because that’s not something that we dive into with, with staff, it’s probably something that I need to do a little bit of more professional learning than new ones. But you know, like, all of those expectations that we have on students to manage self and manage emotions and things, I think there are too many of us in the adult world, who aren’t willing to have those honest conversations and aren’t willing to, you know, get out of our comfort zone, you know, and we hear people say, and sometimes, you know, this isn’t a safe place for me anymore. I’ve heard that in the past. And I’m out of here, because, you know, I’m feeling challenged, that’s basically what they say, you
Tim Lovelock: 45:47
hit it on the head, they’re like, and that’s, we’ve talked about it here, like what we expect children to do every day, to be, you have to be okay with the uncomfortable, to be okay to make that mistake, and try again, to be okay to work with someone that they might not actually like, but they’re a classmate, be a class friend, but they’re a classmate, you know, like, yeah, and then the adults don’t have the same expectation of themselves, you know, that it’s not just an education, you know, in any workplace, you know, behavior. And that’s what I mean about that lag between going actually, there’s an adult behavior here, or an adult process that doesn’t fit with our vision, how long we gonna take before we actually have a conversation about that, either as a whole staff or as between individuals or as a team or whatever, you know, and that’s what I mean about, you know, that making a real difference, because it’s just easier not to. And the trouble is,
Bex Rose: 46:46
that the longer you leave it, the bigger snowball, then it becomes much more problem.
Tim Lovelock: 46:50
Yeah, I had one board, who just I had a board chair once who said, you know, it’s like a business world, you have entrepreneurs, you know, and the thing with that is that entrepreneurs, they see a reward for their risk. You know, they, they innovate, and they have a go, and they make money. He said, in a, you know, public sector field, like a council or a school or whatever, you know, he said, You’re, you’re seen as a more of an intrapreneur, because there’s no monetary reward reward on doing well, or being taking risks, and stepping outside of the norm. He said, Because and so it’s not as tangible. You know, you don’t make money, but you might, because what you’re changing is something that’s hard to measure. And that’s what takes time for it to show. So you said you’re an entrepreneur and an entrepreneur, you’re innovating with, give you more money, and this is the thing, I’ll get paid what I get paid, whether I take risks or not.
Mark Herring: 47:53
But so good.
Bex Rose: 47:55
Yeah, I just had one last question. And I don’t and it’s something that I guess I’m seeing a lot lately, I’ve talked to lots of principals and my role, and what you have all had to deal with over the last couple of years, and then the Auckland principals, another round of it. Now. There is a lot of stress, a lot of challenges. How do you how do you keep your cup full? How do you look after yourself so that you can lead from a full cup and not an empty cup?
Tim Lovelock: 48:27
Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s probably been the biggest challenge over the seven years, there’s certainly been moments, early on and at different points in any year, where I was not sure if I had much more lift than the tank head, I hit my just send a moment, you know?
Bex Rose: 48:45
Yeah. And you’re not the only one. This is why I’m asking you if I get this all the time, like so many people, so many principles, you’ve just had a hard time.
Tim Lovelock: 48:54
Yeah. And, and, you know, we’re sitting with no contract at the moment. You know, it’s hard to feel really, we’ve weathered the storm of three years, like last year was a absolute, you know, that’s that was the biggest challenge of all, to be honest. And, you know, we’re sitting with our collective that’s been settled with setting Iran’s going backwards and, and primary schools, I think, are challenged in the way they’re resourced. And so I suppose for me, you know, I, I’ve made a real conscious effort after the first couple years when I was doing way too much to actually just stop and try and go home and turn everything off. And by that, I mean, there’s no notifications on my phone. When I get home, I’d nothing things that mean nothing pings at me. At least I’d pick it up and choose to look at it. I’m not getting work interrupting me at home, say my laptop goes home. Let me know but when I first started teaching, lots of years ago, someone said always take a bag home because you know whether you can do anything with it or not. It just looks like here it goes and it goes The under the desk in the corner and it sits here. I don’t, you know, I try very hard not to pull it out at night. I try and take the time to actually unwind and you know, and then and then do something for myself and with my family. Because no one else’s job will be here when I’m gone. No one will thank me for breaking myself. And the day. And that’s right. due respect, you know, to be honest, that just send it when you hit the moment of this is enough. Be okay with that of Yeah, even that’s a challenge for people taking the rest of the change.
Mark Herring: 50:37
Yeah. So if you know, if anybody knows you terminan has been renting your house like I have a few times I know that you’re you’re keen for a craft beer after work. So that’s really cool. Great question. Great question to end on. Because I think there’s something that’s super important. And so there’s some really key takeaways there that I think we’ll we’ll touch on before the end of the podcast, quick little plug for our future now Summit. If you’re in the New Zealand, or particularly the Auckland space in the North Island, we’ve got that happening at the end of April, we’ve put on a couple of days, or three days, actually two and a half days of some key leadership concepts that we’re going to look at the disruption of what’s happening in education and what you can do about it to manage that change effectively. And Tim, the plug here is that you’re going to be coming along with your team. So we’re really excited to give your whole your whole team there’s about eight, eight, or nine, nine key leaders going to be sharing briefly with a quick little q&a as a little showcase of what a school can do and what’s happening out there for people to be able to get into breakout rooms. So check out our website for that. We’ve got tickets on sale now. And you can contact us if you’re keen to know more about that. So thanks heaps, Tim, for being on the show, we’re going to really break apart some really key concepts. And hopefully this is going to give a lot of people some encouragement. And if anybody wants to get in touch with you as well, they can do that through the podcast. Yeah, absolutely. Through YPN school, that’d be cool. I know that you’re keen to connect with like minded people. So thanks for being on the show.
Tim Lovelock: 52:00
Thanks for having me. Thanks.
Mark Herring: 52:06
All right on tonight’s good to know what we’ve got is Jeremy here. Jeremy is one of our Google trainers, Google expert trainers, and it’s awesome to have you on you’re going to tell us something about this Google Arts and Culture. Jeremy
Jeremy Ferguson: 52:16
Kia ora everyone, great to be here. I’ve been really enjoying the the first usage of this few recordings of the podcast. So it’s got to be it. Um, yeah. So today, I’m going to show you a little bit about Google Arts and Culture. So if you aren’t familiar with us, this is one of the many different tools and platforms that Google has. And it’s a really cool way of yeah, just looking at some different different things, too, that you might have seen before. So yeah, so to get started, we hit we hit two arts and culture.google.com. On the landing page here, you’ll see that this is at the moment, it’s black history month. So for those of you and maybe if you’re in a secondary school context, when you’re teaching social sciences, or history, this list could be a cool thing to do to look at. But if I just delve a little bit deeper, you can see there is an app that you can download. That’s a really cool way of if you’re wanting to have a play with it on your phone before you test it with your kids, that’s a good way of doing it can say you can sign up to the newsletter, as well as like I’m down here a little bit, you can see that the first thing I’m going to show you is this art coloring book, which when it loads, you basically get given a real life piece of artwork, it loads up for us, you can see that I’m basically given a blank template that has the outlines on there. And what I can do is I can tab in between the real nice thing and in my own. So if I’m wanting to make it realistic, I can check what’s going on here. Or I can make it as wacky as I want. If I wanted to make it think or green, or whatever I can do, it’s a really cool way of doing it. So if you’re wanting to do a bit more art with your kids, and maybe want to try something different with your kids, in terms of art, this is a really good way of doing it. And you can see that once I’ve got that I can, once it’s finished, I can download it, I can share it. And there’s also other options you can choose from here as well. I can also skip inside a virtual gallery. If I click on that, it’s going to take me to this pocket gallery here. So it gives me a little preview. But what I can do here is I can enter the gallery. And once I’m in you can see, this gives me some controls down here. So if I wanted to just click and move forwards, maybe come down this way and right, I want to check out the space here. So if I click on that, it’s gonna take me into the close up view, and then tells me about the piece tells me when we’re in a bit of a context, and it tells me which part of the cam collection it is. Yes. And
Mark Herring: 54:38
to give people some context for those of you because I know that not everybody is watching this on YouTube, what you’re doing is you’re walking through a virtual museum almost and it’s like a walkthrough with arrows because I know for a lot of teachers, they can’t go out on trips. You know, it takes a lot of time to organize that you got a lot of permission slips, you’ve got transport, no one’s
Jeremy Ferguson: 54:57
doing the time that it takes to yeah Yeah, they said all the fun of the field trip without without all the extra concerns about all that
Mark Herring: 55:05
extra stuff. Wow, that’s fantastic. Yeah, that’s really cool.
Jeremy Ferguson: 55:08
I think I think a reduced load is there’s about 3000, virtual galleries, you can, you can walk through so. And then if you’re looking at a particular artist, or maybe you wanting to broaden the horizons of your kids, you could say, right going find a gallery from Germany or from wherever it might be. And they can go and find some different art pieces, there’s a bunch of content on here, again, what I would recommend is, as a teacher, go and find what you want to look at first. And then once you’ve found something that you think be good for your kids, you can have a look down here, and just clicking on where it says 3000 Plus museums. So what I’m gonna do is I’m going to show you that, so I’m in New Zealand. So I’m gonna find out so you can go to the map, and you can actually go and find on the map for your listing, you might be able to see that if you’re watching on, on the video version, you can stay long scrolling into New Zealand and I want to come down to Auckland, which is where I’m based. And then if I double click on that, it brings me nice and flows. And what I can do is I can find a museum, now Auckland, and I’m just going to use the Auckland Museum as an example. If I keep scrolling in here, you’ll see Auckland War Memorial Museum, which is my local museum, I scroll down, it shows me a bunch of different exhibits. And if I keep scrolling down, I can go down to here where it says, museum view, I can click on Explorer. And what that will let me do is it will actually show me a real life view of what the museum wow and the guy look and I can move around. It’s like illustrating, just like you had to like Google Streetview. And so it’s using the same features. But I think the last time I was at this museum, we found my wife’s great grandfather’s name for one of the honors sports. So this is a really cool way to how detailed it is. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah. So maybe if you’ve got like a field trip coming up, and maybe you wanted to get a little idea in terms of what you can find beforehand. This to be written by or try before you buy tool, if you’re wanting to see, right, let’s look inside the Smithsonian or let’s look inside that, whatever it might be, or like the Louisville, maybe there’s some really cool museums or art galleries around the world you’re going to look through and obviously, geography stopping you from getting there. This can be a really cool way of doing it. But yeah, arts and culture has gotten so caught up on it. Yeah, you can, you can spend hours as I would suggest, obviously, because it’s not specifically designed for executive education in mind, like, like a lot of the other Google tools. It’s not something I would recommend just just flicking the link to kids and saying, right, go for gold buttons, obviously with art and culture. And sometimes data added security specifically, or broken audience. So maybe just use the discretion with Vicki being the first of the year, this time, just
Mark Herring: 57:49
one vote. One quick little reflexive. Jeremy, one of the things I find funny about this is that whenever you’re showing students and I’ve been in classrooms and you show teachers and students, Google Maps and taking on Street View, what’s the very first thing you can do? Because bearing in mind, if you were on the road and needed, you did exactly this, you can go anywhere in the world, where did they go? Where’s my house? Or where’s the canvas? Or they could the McDonald’s around the corner, you know, says you went on to the one, you have gone to the museum that’s like nearest to you. But you can check our system. And I encourage people to go all over it, like you said, to go to Paris, where you can go to wash it through see go to the museum. Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah.
Jeremy Ferguson: 58:25
And I’m continuing in terms of what we have available on here. Now, I know, in previous episodes we’ve looked at, and we’ve talked about lots about AI and chat GPT and stuff. And so there’s actually an intro into AI section. So if I click on this section here on the AI intro section, basically what it does is it brings me up everything I related that that Google has in terms of exhibits and articles and stuff. So this could be a really cool way of looking at it from that perspective. And and because it’s Google’s products, he could you know, that it’s, it’s all sorts of stuff that you can do, I had a bit of a exploring to him last night, and I fell, I came across this one is AI article, which is just a good one. And basically, it’s got lots of visuals, it’s got lots of brands. So it’s not just like a bunch of text that you have to read through this is World photos and sort of gives you a timeline of what AI has looked like over the over the years and how it’s been expanding and stuff. So yeah, that nuns are stuff that you can that you can ever look at all this Sunday on the side, some cultural, first grade.
Mark Herring: 59:26
So from it from a teacher lens, you might not be something that every teacher in your school is aware of and will go to regulator, but I know that there are usually one or two teachers in most schools or in a syndicate who have that kind of finger on the pulse with resources like this. So if you’re doing some inquiry planning or some planning for the year, or you’re looking at, you know, social sciences lessons, this can be the kind of thing that you know that you’ve bookmarked on our list of tools to go to or call resources. And you can find something on here to share with the rest of your staff or the rest of your team can share you know So it’s sort of adding to the array of resources that you can go to in a virtual way, which is amazing.
Bex Rose: 1:00:05
Really, cuz I see something new to inspire and innovate the new learning experiences in classrooms. Yeah, for a
Mark Herring: 1:00:13
while, so thanks. Alright VIX, Episode Six, tell us what your thoughts are.
Bex Rose: 1:00:21
Well, I thought it was great hearing from Tim today. And maybe it takes a really courageous leader to change the landscape of the school. And I think Tim has done it in a really clear and concise way. And making sure the manner or the prestige of the staff are still intact. So it was a, I just love that conversation. You chose it always something. So awesome. Neutrals are always awesome to introduce into a classroom. So go and have a look at Google Arts and Culture. And I do hope the Five Love Languages resonated with you and you kind of picked out which one yours was and have reflected on how these can really enhance the culture of your organization.
Mark Herring: 1:00:59
We’re super stoked to be able to have some amazing guests on and that’s our first score principle on which is, has been great to get some of those tips. So if you’re a school leader out there who’s looking at changing your organization, there’s, there’s some real nuggets and some real gold on there. So we hope that you got some good value on that and do share that with people. There’s a Share button with the podcast, we’d love for this to be able to get out there. Obviously this is a brand new podcast, this is episode six. And we’re we’d love to grow our community and conversation with you. So share that with people you know, who might get some value and haven’t heard about us yet. There’s also lots of shownotes. So go down and have a look at those. We’ve got some links to arts and culture. There’s some things that Tim has mentioned and some just some resources that we’ll put in there as well that I know that have made a big difference for him in changing his school. So great to see you. I look forward to seeing you on the next episode.